Financial Recovery for Women, Single Moms | COC Women’s Conference

I am excited to announce that Single Mothers Outreach parent Lori O’Brien will be a guest speaker at this Saturday’s Women’s Conference at College of the Canyons. Her topic: financial empowerment.

She writes, “I have lived in SCV for 15 yrs and I’ve been a single mom for 10 of those years. Every one of us has at one time or another been so worried and anxious about our financial situations that we’ve lost sleep, experienced physical symptoms such as digestive issues, random aches and pains, etc., that anxiety over financial matters creates, and it robs us of the joy of living and time with our children.”

Lori is a graduate of Single Mothers Outreach’s successful financial literacy program. Nationally syndicated radio/TV talk show host, Dave Ramsey teaches the program on DVD and small group discussion follows. If participants work the program, they will see positive financial results.  In taking the class in the Fall 2010, she has paid off $4000 in debt and has put $1000 in an emergency fund, which gives her some peace while she is paying off debt.

“With implementing some of the principles and methods I’ve learned, I’ve learned how to stand on my own two feet and provide for my family.” Lori remarked.

Lori will be sharing highlights of the program and taking sign ups for those interested in going through the program this Saturday, March 17, 2012 at the College of the Canyons Women’s Conference. Tickets are $15.00 and can be purchased here.

Great Business Advice from Someone Who Knows

Great business advice from someone who knows: Dave Ramsey

Over the years, I’ve been honored to hang out with some of our country’s top business leaders. And that’s no accident. I’ve always believed that if you want to win at something, you’ve got to find some people who are already winning at it and learn everything you possibly can from them.

Out of all of the men and women I’ve met, there is one person whose words touched my heart and have stayed with me to this day. This incredibly successful billionaire didn’t quote any philosophy or fancy financial formulas when I asked for his secret to success. Instead, he just gave me one simple rule to live by: Be generous in business, at home and in the marketplace. Why? Because successful people are generous people, and generous people become the most successful people.

As the holiday season gets into full swing, remember his words. Don’t have the heart of a grinch. Celebrate Christmas wholeheartedly with your family, your team and your customers. Give what you can, when you can—as God leads you. And here’s an idea: Try doing that the rest of the year too. It’s a blast!

Along the Way with Michelle Tall: “Garden Gnomes”

by Michelle Tall

I love 99 cent stores.  There I’ve said it and I’m only semi-embarrassed to admit it.  I have been known to spend up to two hours just browsing.  It’s one of my guilty pleasures.  I grab a cart and begin the joys of what I like to call:

“going up and down every single aisle and picking up and looking at every single thing and thinking to myself, hmmm…I really do need to have this medium-sized, leaning slightly to the left, (tilt your head to the right and you won’t even notice!) ceramic garden gnome holding a purple sunflower attached by something that could mean a possible trip to the doctor for a tetanus shot.”

But seriously, a trip to the dollar stores can provide both entertainment and great finds.  Coming across a 6-pack of Juicy Juice can feel like I hit the lottery.  And the truth is, there is one store in particular that has stepped up its game and has added a small produce section (whether it’s fresh produce, I can’t say for sure).  All I know is I’ve found a basket of strawberries that looked and tasted great—so what if I had to toss them out the next day.  My son and I enjoyed them for dessert that night and they were only one dollar!

I’ve built up a decent tool box complete with a hammer and nails, both phillips and flathead screwdrivers and even a (working) picture hanging laser leveler.

I have a cupboard stocked with name brand cans of soup.  I’ve got a supply of basic office products such as pens, paper, envelopes, etc.

And if you look hard enough, (be warned, you’ll need to put in some effort and dig through the bins!) you can build up a little collection of holiday decorations that don’t scream “I was purchased at your local dollar store!”

So for every garden gnome I’ve come across, I’ve also discovered some great stuff.  I believe it really comes down to the individual.  Is the trip and time invested worth finding a handful of marvelous little treasures and waiting in a long check-out line (because the other 5 registers are never open)?  Only you can answer that question.

But if you happen to find yourself at a dollar store on any given Sunday afternoon, I’ll be that lady spending a particularly long time checking out the garden gnomes with a look of genuine consideration on my face.

I Decided Not to Give Up…

Despite the setbacks, Amy Misencik kept going and is now debt-free

Source: Dave Ramsey

Single Mothers Outreach offers Dave Ramsey’s Financial Peace University twice a year to all interested SCV Parents. We believe this is one of the most empowering programs we offer to help parents move from surviving to thriving. We hope you enjoy this inspiring story. -Single Mothers Outreach

Family Celebrates With DaveAmy Misencik and her two kids traveled from South Carolina to see Dave at his office in Nashville.

Everyone, at some point in life, will encounter some type of unexpected obstacle—something that comes out of the blue and totally rocks their world to the core. It could be a family tragedy, a divorce, a medical condition—the possibilities are endless.

For Amy Misencik, her life changed drastically when she and her husband divorced after 16 years of marriage. At the time, she was a stay-at-home mother who had always allowed her husband to take care of the bills.

After she received primary custody of their kids, she knew things had to change financially. “I knew I could not just meander through life without a financial plan. So once I got a job, I put Dave’s plan into effect for the financial health of me and my two kids,” Amy said.

The Big First Step

She started by selling their house. “One thing I realized when we moved was that kids do not need one particular house over another. Once you take the posters off the walls, it’s just a building. And once you put your posters up in another place, it becomes your own.”

Amy said selling the house wasn’t an emotional decision for her: “I knew I couldn’t handle living there—the house was much bigger than we needed. I couldn’t afford it financially or time-wise. And once I accepted this information, I realized that the sooner I could move, the better.” She also said renting a new house gave her a chance to make a fresh start and empowered her to do something on her own.

To adjust to the new experience of being a single mom, Amy said she had to believe in herself. “The hardest part was believing I could get out of debt. One of the problems in my marriage was that I was never trusted with money, so I never learned how to control it,” she said.

A Sense of Peace with Money

We’re Debt Freeeeee!Amy called into Dave’s radio show on a Debt-Free Friday at Financial Peace Plaza in Nashville.

Amy was so excited about becoming debt-free that she drove with her kids from Greenville, South Carolina, to Nashville to make her Debt-Free Friday call in the lobby of Financial Peace Plaza. She says Dave’s plan gave her something to rely on while she was still recovering from all the changes in her life. “At the time of my divorce, my brain was mush from all the emotional stuff going on, so the less I had to think, the better. And so I put Dave’s plan into effect and pretty much blindly followed it, which was exactly what I needed at the time.”

She said that her sense of peace is the biggest difference between her life now and her life before. “Now, I have money to invest in my retirement, which had been neglected during my marriage. And I can invest for my children’s college funds. I am now at peace with money instead of dreading it.”

From One Single Parent To Another

To other single mothers, Amy says to “trust in yourself and in God.” She says, at first, she was overwhelmed by everything she needed to take care of. She didn’t believe she could make it by herself. “But then I decided to just get up every day and try to make it through that day. I told myself that God will give me the strength to get done what needed to get done. I couldn’t do it all at once, and that was okay. Now it’s two years later and as I look back, I cannot believe what I’ve been through and what I’ve accomplished,” she said.

“If $20 is all you can scrape up to apply to your debt snowball, that’s okay,” Amy adds. “At least you are not going further into debt and at least you have a plan, which is more than what most people do. It’s okay to be the tortoise and take things slow. The tortoise wins the race in end.”

As Amy continues to build toward her family’s future, her story reminds us that setbacks don’t have to knock us down. In fact, setbacks can often readjust our priorities and help us realize what’s really important.

In Amy’s case, she was forced to take control of her own financial situation. Now she simply wants to make sure she can take care of her family—and others. “I want to be able to retire with dignity. I want to be able to help my children with college. And I want to be able to share the wealth God has given me with others.”

She’s changing her family tree and making a difference in other people’s lives. And, in the end, that’s what Financial Peace is all about.

This can be you! Check out Dave’s Seven Baby Steps to get started on your journey to freedom now!

Single Mom Avoids Normal and Finds Success

Source: Dave Ramsey

Mayvis Schwab is not your typical financial success story.

Married by the age of 20, she never worked outside the home until she was in her thirties. By then, she was a single mother of three and had just started her career in local government.

Now Mayvis is 61, debt-free including her home, and she anticipates an excellent income when she retires from full-time work in a few years. Her story is evidence that just working toward a goal will lead to success.

But family and friends didn’t always agree with Mayvis’ financial decisions. Fortunately, she found that “going against the winds” was her favorite part of getting out of debt and building wealth.

“I remember feeling guilty at first when I was totally debt-free,” she said. “But not anymore. Going against the winds means thinking and acting independently and not succumbing to the pressures.

“Becoming debt-free brought me confidence,” she added. “I know now that I can make great decisions about money. I am not a loser. Strange maybe—but not a loser.”

24-Hour Turnaround

Mayvis’ debt-free story began in July 2007 with her first meeting with her investing Endorsed Local Provider, Tripp Hook in Bothell, WA. She was already a Dave Ramsey listener and loved hearing people call in to proclaim they were debt-free.

“When people would call in, I could almost feel the excitement and joy,” she said.

Mayvis said she wanted to believe that a debt-free life was possible for her, but she had her doubts. She’d never had credit card debt, but she had nearly $60,000 to pay on her condo. That’s a big number for a single mom who had raised three kids.

“I had the mindset that only the elite or rich could ever be totally out of debt,” she said. “And I was neither of those things.” She felt as though it was a dream she would never be able to achieve.

But she wanted to be debt-free, so she met with Tripp to come up with a game plan that would make her dream a reality. She already had some cash saved and some investments with another firm. After Tripp looked over her accounts, he gave her the news.

“He said I could be debt-free by tomorrow,” Mayvis said. “I thought I was going to faint!”

“She was quite shocked for a minute,” Tripp remembered. “It was just a shift in her thinking that made it possible.”

The Next Goal—Retirement

With her home paid for and just herself to support, Mayvis is able to catch up on her retirement savings by investing half of her $68,000 income. Right now, she has $300,000 in savings and investments. She’ll continue working, and investing, full time for three more years. Then she plans to work part time for several years after that.

The only addition Tripp suggested for Mayvis’ retirement planning is long term care insurance. Long term care insurance will help cover the costs of a nursing home or in-home nursing care if Mayvis ever needs it. It will protect the money she’s been able to save.

Thanks to her pension, a rare thing these days, Mayvis will be comfortable when she retires, and she’ll be able to leave an excellent inheritance for her family.

It’s Never Too Late To Be Weird

Mayvis has been able to achieve her financial goals, even though they seemed far-fetched to her. With a goal and a good investing professional on your side, you can do the same. Mayvis worked with one of Dave’s ELPs, and so can you. Your ELP is an expert who follows Dave’s investment teachings and will help you understand your options. Get connected with your ELP today!

 

 

Everyday Money Saving Tips for Single Parents

Simple Ways to Trim Your Budget and Keep More of What You Earn

By Jennifer Wolf, About.com Guide

When money is tight, you might be tempted to look for “big” ways to start saving more money each month. However, quite often, you’ll find that saving money in “little” ways every day begins to add up to considerable savings. Put these money saving tips into practice, and make a point of putting the money you save into the bank.

Money Saving Tip #1: Use Coupons Effectively

If you’re going to bother to clip coupons, make sure you use them in a way that saves you the most money possible. For example, find out whether your local grocery store offers to double coupon values on a certain day. If they do, make that day of the week your regular shopping day. Also, refer to the store’s weekly flyer to find out what’s on sale. If you have coupons for items, such as cereal, that regularly go on sale, wait until the sale to use the coupon. Over time, this strategy will help you save a lot of money.

Money Saving Tip #2: Use Inexpensive Toiletries

We’ve all seen the Suave commercials. I don’t know about you, but I certainly can’t tell the difference between the Suave results and the more expensive brands they use for the purposes of comparison. In addition, Suave offers a money-back guarantee, so you have nothing to lose by giving it a try. Another option is shopping for toiletries in a dollar store. You might be surprised to learn how many different brand name products are available for discounted prices.

Money Saving Tip #3: Use Generic Laundry Detergents

You can save quite a bit of money each month just by purchasing the least expensive laundry detergent available to you. Whether you buy the generic brand or use coupon, the money you can save really adds up by the end of the month when you consider how much laundry you do. And if you’re planning to check into your local dollar store for toiletries, add laundry detergent to your shopping list. You’re likely to find several options there.

Money Saving Tip #4: Do Not Have Your Clothes Professionally Dry Cleaned

There are two ways to go about this: Either don’t buy clothes that need to be dry cleaned, or use the dry cleaning fabric sheets that be used in the dryer.

Money Saving Tip #5: Drink Water

How much money do we spend per week on sodas and specialty drinks? Making an effort to drink tap water during the day can really add up when you compare it’s cost – nothing at all – to what you typically spend on sodas, coffees, and other drinks.

Money Saving Tip #6: Make Your Own Snacks

It often surprises me how much of my regular grocery shopping is convenience snack food for the kids! Instead of buying individually-wrapped snacks at $3-$4 per box, consider making your own snacks, or buying snacks in bulk and storing them in handy snack-sized Zip-loc bags. The result is just as convenient, but costs you a lot less.

Money Saving Tip #7: Double Your Recipes When You Cook

When you go grocery shopping, plan to purchase twice the ingredients for one or two recipes. Specifically in regards to the meat, you’ll pay less per pound when you purchase a larger amount for doubling your recipes. Then freeze the extra batch for an evening when you don’t have time to cook a full meal. Not only will this strategy save you money on the cost of the ingredients, but it will prevent you from ordering take-out on your next harried evening. The combination can lead to significant savings.

Money Saving Tip #8: Buy Generic Foods and Staples

If you don’t purchase generic breakfast cereals, snacks, and breads, consider how much money you could save each month. If you’re concerned that your kids “won’t like” the generic foods, take a couple of weeks to gradually ease them into your family’s routine. For example, mix half of a box of Cheerios with half of a box of generic O-shaped cereal. In a couple of weeks, your kids will be accustomed to any variance in flavor or texture, and they won’t know the difference.

Money Saving Tip #9: Only Buy Used Cars

Do you deserve a new car? Absolutely! But it isn’t always the wisest decision. You can save more money over time by purchasing a decent “certified” used car from a dealer you trust.

Money Saving Tip #10: Downgrade One luxury Item

Think about how many luxuries we’ve become accustomed to. You probably don’t go anywhere without your cell phone, and we all seem to be convinced that we “have to have” cable TV or a satellite dish. Some of the accoutrements that we once thought of as special treats have become the staples in our monthly budgets. This is actually a big part of why there’s too much month left at the end of our paychecks. For now, choose just one luxury to downgrade or eliminate.

 

9 Homemade Christmas Gifts That Might Actually Get Used

Source: http://christianpf.com

by BOB on NOVEMBER 23, 2010

Let’s be honest, we have all received some homemade Christmas gifts that never saw the light of day again – sometimes they are well intentioned and so we might not care that our peppermint-scented ruler holder won’t get too much use. The thought and love behind it makes up for it’s lack of usefulness. But what if there were some Christmas presents you could make and give to people that they would appreciate the thought (more than a gift card), were used and enjoyed, and saved you money to boot?

The recent issue of Real Simple magazine has a few ideas for homemade Christmas gifts that got me thinking. As a guy who thoroughly enjoys food (don’t we all?) if I can eat it, I will enjoy it.  But there are a few other gift ideas listed below that I think would have a decent chance of being enjoyed by many!

1. Chocolate Nut Bark

This one was featured in Real Simple and is indeed real simple! You only need to buy 12 ounces of semisweet chocolate and 2.5 cups of mixed nuts. You then melt the chocolate in a heatproof bowl set over a (but not in) a saucepan of gently simmering water, stirring occasionally.  Next you spread the chocolate evenly on a parchment-lined 9×13 inch baking pan and sprinkle with the nuts. Refrigerate until firm (about 30 mins). After that you can break into pieces and keep at room temperature for a week.

2. Beeswax candles

This was a homemade gift that I received one year and loved it. I particularly enjoy beeswax candles over paraffin wax (the wax used in most candles) because of their health benefits. Buying them can be expensive, but making them really isn’t too difficult and can even be fun. I like making tea lights because they are simple, but if you want something even simpler you can learn how to make rolled beeswax candles.

3. A homemade clock

You can go to just about any crafty store and find a Clock Kit for just a few bucks. You can then decorate a piece of wood, ceramic, or just about anything and turn it into a clock.

4. Monogrammed Journal

This was another one that Real Simple had that I thought was pretty cool. Basically you just buy a hardback journal and add a little creative flair to it. They say to get a few letter stamps and rubber banding them together, so you can stamp the monogram consistently. From there you can let your imagination run wild – check out the pic for inspiration.

5. Chocolate-chip cookies

Get a little Christmas Tin, make cookies, and give it away. This is a winning gift every time!

6. Painted pot for plants

This was actually a homemade gift we received for our wedding. The giver bought a standard clay pot and decorated it and painted our names on it. Then she planted a little plant in it and we are still using our pot today! It’s a great way to take a simple item and give it some personality.

7. Build a birdhouse

I haven’t done this in a while, but I built my mom a birdhouse when I was about 12 or so and she cried. This was a perfect example of a homemade present having so much more value than a store-bought one. I could have probably purchased a far-superior birdhouse for a few bucks, but my investment of time and energy into it made it a great gift. For a little instruction you can check out this video on how to build one from a single piece of wood.

8. Gold-leaf vases

This was also in the Real Simple issue and while I wouldn’t get that much of a kick out of these, I think my wife would dig them. Basically you can just find a few small vases from the thrift store and get a Gold Leaf Kit. From there you just follow the instructions in the kit – you can and should add your own creative flare…

9. Terrarium

I remember making one of these as a kid and loved watching the the little contained eco-system. I used an old gallon jar of Mauls bbq sauce and had it for years. This post has some great ideas to get you started.

A few more links if you are looking for additional homemade gift ideas…

• 100 homemade gift ideas
• Homemade gifts
• 73 homemade Christmas gifts for the craft-impaired

What about you – what homemade christmas presents have you enjoyed receiving or giving?

Single Mom of Five Overcomes Debt One Step at a Time

Source: Dave Ramsey

Many people are faced with unbelievable challenges while moving toward financial peace—maybe you’re one of them. Some have a mountain of debt and only one income, some get laid off, and some feel like Murphy moved into their spare bedroom and won’t leave! And don’t forget the nonstop car repairs, broken air conditioner and trip to the emergency room thrown in there just for fun!

Whatever challenges you may face, remember that there are always Dave fans with whom you can relate. Take Teresa, for example … a single mom of five with one income. She kicked the victim mentality to the curb and is well on her way to putting her money to work.

Teresa was a 49-year-old active member of the United States Navy Reserve when she went through Financial Peace University (FPU). As a single mother of five sons, she’s seen her fair share of struggles. “I raised my sons alone with little support from their father. We have dumpster dived, lived in a borrowed car, been homeless, and stayed in a shelter,” she said.

In spite of her difficulties, Teresa managed to provide for herself and her family. She enrolled in an FPU class and began the Baby Steps. At the start of the class, Teresa had several money issues that she needed to deal with. She owed $14,000 on her car, $1,000 on an extended warranty balance, $16,000 in student loans for grad school, $700 on a credit card, and $3,000 on a personal loan from her mom. She was nearly $35,000 in debt!

As she plugged her way through the FPU class, Teresa learned the importance of an emergency fund and how to create a budget on one income. “As I followed the FPU steps, I was able to complete Baby Step 1 right away and then immediately begin Baby Step 2,” she said.

During the FPU class, Teresa was able to pay off $20,000 in debt and put $3,000 in her emergency fund. “I’ve slowly added to my emergency fund because my comfort zone for this is important as a single woman,” Teresa said.

How You Can Do It, Too

In order to do an amazing turnaround like Teresa, you must get on a plan and stick to it. Even though it’s tough, a monthly budget will help you gain control of your money. When starting a budget, it’s important to remember the four walls—food, shelter, transportation and clothing. Once those things are covered, establish a $1,000 emergency fund. After that, start paying off debt with gazelle intensity using the Baby Steps.

Singles often deal with “I owe it to myself” syndrome and struggle with impulse buying. Teresa learned to overcome those feelings, instead gaining a sense of empowerment once she had a working budget.

It’s also important to develop an accountability relationship with someone you trust.Your accountability partner must love you enough to be brutally honest with you about money. Whenever you need to make a major purchase or discuss your budget, talk to your accountability partner first.

Financial Peace University is a 13-week course that will help anyone, regardless of age or marital status, learn how to set up a budget, become gazelle intense, develop accountability, and much more. Single Mothers Outreach offers this class to single parents twice a year: once in the fall from Sept-Dec and in the spring from Feb-May. Check it out now!

No time for Financial Peace University but would still like to learn more about Dave’s program? Single Mothers Outreach has a limited supply of Dave’s book, My Total Money Makeover, available for free to SMO members while supplies last. Contact the office to receive your copy.

 

Reader Story: Patience and Persistence Pay Off

We are posting this article because we think Alissa came up with a great way to motivate herself to stay on the path of beating her debt. -SMO

Alissa's chain of debt

In April 2007, I found myself owing $6,500 to my credit cards and $24,000 on my student loans. While not a lot, I was only earning $31,000 and living in Washington, D.C. Earning $31,000 in the D.C. area is not a comfortable salary, especially when you have to pay a large portion of your health insurance costs out of pocket after taxes. Thankfully my student loans were all Stafford loans, and I had them on an income-dependent payment plan.

Read more…

Cash Solutions for Single Moms

Dave Ramsey Offers Insight Into Problems And Solutions

(CBS) There’s a sense of hopelessness in the letters financial expert Dave Ramsey has received from single moms.

Combine the financial stress with the pressures of being a single parent and it’s no wonder single moms are looking for help. Ramsey offers advice on The Early Show.

He says the most common financial mistake that he sees single moms commit is that after a divorce many women hold on to their homes, hoping to maintain a sense of normality for kids whose family has just been torn apart.

Unfortunately, Ramsey says, these women can’t honestly afford the mortgage. They pay it, but they wind up spending too much money each month on housing. Financially, many single moms would be better off moving into a smaller home with a smaller mortgage payment.

Here are the questions he received and his advice:

I am a single parent of one daughter who is 14. I am at my wits end on what to do to get out of debt. I was divorced two years ago and was left with a lot of credit card debt, and not a very high paying job. I do have a better job now, but I feel I cannot pay off the credit cards or make ends meet. I have a monthly income of $2,200 and more bills than I can list at this time. I would appreciate any advice you could give me as to where to start.

Sharon

Ramsey says Sharon needs to start with a budget. She needs to write down everything that she needs to spend money on each month, from groceries to credit card bills. She then needs to write down how much she has available to spend each month. Sharon should plan to take care of all basic necessities first. She needs to budget for food, the utility bill, etc. After setting aside that money, she will clearly be able to see that she can’t afford to pay all her bills/debts.

So how does seeing that she can’t pay all of her obligations make her feel better? She should receive a sense of accomplishment knowing that she is providing all basic necessities for her family, Ramsey says. Also, although she won’t be paying all of her bills, she will be doing so consciously, she will be choosing what to pay and not pay. In this sense, she is taking control of her debt. Additionally, having everything written down on paper will help Sharon see where she can cut her spending and spark ideas for using her money more wisely. In this way, she will slowly be able to begin putting more towards bills, etc., each month.

Michelle in Wisconsin writes:

I am a single mom trying to make ends meet. I make just over $23,000 a year, but pay $400 a month in daycare. I have $20,000 in student loans and about $3,000 in other debt. I can barely make my monthly utilities. How do I get somewhere on my other bills?

Ramsey says Michelle needs a support system. The daycare issue is a financial hardship and also can be a scheduling and emotional nightmare. Michelle needs a neighbor or an older friend at church to “adopt” her and help take care of her kids from time to time. If Michelle doesn’t live near family, maybe it’s time for her to consider moving.

Ramsey has two specific financial suggestions for Michelle. First, he believes she — and all other single moms — needs to find an “accountability partner.” One of the hard things about being a single parent is that you feel isolated, like you have to make all big financial decisions by yourself. Single parents need to find someone they trust — a sister, a friend a pastor — to discuss the family finances and to assist in decisions like buying a car or replacing a dishwasher.

“This partner has to be someone who truly loves you,” Ramsey says, “because he or she also has to be able to ‘bust you’ when you make a stupid financial decision. The accountability partner has to be willing to say things like, ‘Don’t you dare take a shopping spree and put three pairs of shoes on your credit card this month.’ “

Ramsey also says that Michelle needs to look for ways to increase her income. A temporary solution is the dreaded part-time job. But Michelle needs to look for a long-term solution, too. He believes she should take advantage of any free time by reading or taking a class because “you get paid for what you know, not what you do.”

Michelle needs to formulate a plan for making more money. If she works in a salon, she needs to really learn the business so that one day she can own the salon, for example. She needs to continue to learn and grow so she’s prepared to move up the career ladder, he says.

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